A Conversation with John Wesley

I actually wrote this about one and a half years ago, but I still struggle with the same issues that are mentioned here. This fictional conversation emerged after spending hours of reading Wesley's sermons and trying to grasp their true message. Written October 21, 2005:

GC: Your sermon “Christian Perfection” disturbed me. See, I’ve been studying your theology for a long time and have grown up in a church within the tradition you started, but some of the things you said in that sermon were brand new to me.

JW: Oh really? What was so new and disturbing?

GC: Well, you forcefully claimed that anyone who has been justified and born again does not sin outwardly. But I have always been taught that, sure, Christians sin; the only difference is that they are forgiven. It doesn’t mean that a Christian NEVER sins.

JW: Well, that is certainly not what I teach. Yes, Christians are forgiven, but those who are born of God are no longer bound by the guilt and power of sin.

GC: Aren’t you describing the entirely sanctified?

JW: Oh no. The entirely sanctified are free from the being of sin. That is, they no longer have sinful thoughts and tempers. But even the youngest baby in Christ is free from the power of sin. I insist on the plain meaning of John’s words, “He who is born of God does not sin.”

GC: But by that you mean “sin continually” or “habitually,” right? That’s how we have always interpreted it.

JW: Do you see the word “habitually” written there? No. You want to add that for your own comfort. You want to be a child of the devil and a child of God both, but you cannot do that.

GC: Are you saying that any time I sin at all, I am a child of the devil?

JW: Well, I don’t know what you mean by “at all,” but if you mean “sin outwardly,” then yes, you are a child of the Devil at that moment.

GC: But I’ve been born again. I know that I have. I’ve gone to the alter many times and out my faith in God.

JW: That alter? What’s that?

GC: Oh, I guess you didn’t have those in your day. Well, I just mean that I’ve prayed the sinner’s prayer.

JW: The sinner’s prayer?

GC: Ugh. I’ve put my trust in Jesus for my salvation. Do you understand that?

JW: Yes, I understand. But if you’ve really put your trust in Jesus, then you would not sin. Faith always expresses itself in holiness. Faith without works is no faith at all.

GC: OK. Let’s just say that I genuinely put my faith in God for my salvation. But then a week later I got angry at my wife and yelled at her. Did I loose my salvation?

JW: Well, I might question how genuine your moment of regeneration was. But, of course, it is possible that you be saved and then fall back into sin. I outlined this process in detail in my sermon called “The Great Privilege of Those Born of God.” You were walking by faith and then were tempted. The Spirit checked your Spirit, but you chose to listen again to the Tempter and your faith was weakened. Then the Spirit rebuked you more harshly, but you again hardened your heart to his voice. Then the love of God left you and you became a child of wrath capable of outward sin.

GC: Well, what if I had just yelled at her out of instinct without going through this whole process?

JW: Is that what happened?

GC: Actually, no. The anger slowly grew within me until it came out of my mouth.

JW: Well, that’s good. Because if you had sinned instantly without even thinking about it and without hearing the voice of the Spirit at all, then I think you really were a child of the Devil all along.

GC: So what happened in my case? Did I actually lose my salvation?

JW: I prefer to think in terms of relationship. In the moment you yelled at your wife, you chose to sever your relationship with the Father.

GC: So you’re saying I did lose my salvation if even for a moment?

JW: I guess if you force me to say it that way, then yes. You did. In that moment you were not a child of God.

GC: But what if I willingly chose to sin outwardly on a regular basis? Does that mean that I am not a child of God during any of those moments?

JW: I say again that anyone who is a child of God does not sin. So either you are constantly going back and forth from a state of salvation to damnation or you are simply kidding yourself in thinking that you are a child of God at all. By the way, do you have the witness of the Spirit? This is the most certain way of knowing that you are a child of God. It is an inward assurance both mental and emotional, a conviction and an impression. Do you have this?

GC: I cannot say that I do.

JW: Then seek the Lord while He may be found.